Podcast: Ross Dunlop | Exploring Mountain Biking Mindset, Coaching Evolution, and Two Decades of Whistler Wisdom

In this insightful episode of The Mind Mountain Podcast, I sit down with Ross Dunlop, an expert mountain bike and snowboard coach from Whistler, BC. With deep roots in Scotland, Ross has transformed his passion for biking into a fully-fledged, year-round career, coaching everyone from first-timers to professional coaches and athletes, and co-founding the Sportssense coaching app.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9L-uTmPGU

Ross shares his journey from scratching in sketchy trails and driveway jumps in Scotland to helping build the coaching industry in Whistler. We dive deep into the mental aspects of mountain biking, and he sheds light on how overcoming mental barriers, such as fear and frustration, is often the key to unlocking our true potential on the trails. Ross explains the importance of setting realistic goals and using incremental improvement to build confidence and resilience.

We also explore how technology is revolutionizing coaching. As one of the minds behind Sportsense, Ross discusses how the app enhances learning through video analysis and personalized feedback, complementing traditional in-person coaching with modern tech. This is an episode full of insights, passion, and practical advice for any coach or rider looking to elevate their mountain biking experience.

You can listen to the episode here or by searching 'The Mind Mountain' on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or over on the podcast page of our website.

Happy trails,

Jake Johnstone FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Mind Mountain Podcast. This is the podcast that delves deep into the mental performance side of mountain biking in with interesting guests from all across our sport so that you guys, the listener, can learn tools, tips, and tactics. They will help you become a better mountain biker and hopefully have more fun out on the trails more often.

Today's guest is Ross Dunlop, and Ross is originally from Scotland. He's called Whistler, BC Home for the past 20 years where he is built a great reputation through his career as an expert mountain bike coach and snowboard coach. On top of that, he also trained instructors at the highest level, as well as being one of the co-founders of the Sports Sense remote coaching app.

I've been spending a bunch of time on. Ross is known for his confident and highly skilled, yet humble presence on the trails, proper qualities to mirror for any rider seeking progression. So today as usual, we're gonna dig into the mental side of mountain biking. In drawing on Ross's wealth of experience, we're gonna [00:01:00] take a look at what actually holds riders back once, the skills of that.

And we're gonna look at things like hesitation, committing to features, reading terrain, and getting your head right when the going gets tough. Ross, with no further ado, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. 

Hey Jake. Yeah, thanks for having me. Um, yeah, really appreciate it. And that's a very kind intro.

Um, I've never been introduced that way, so thank you. That's 

amazing. You can on. So, yeah, we'll, just saying off camera that this is a really cool opportunity for us not only to record a podcast and hopefully give our listeners some resources they can use on the trails, but also to get to know each other some more.

We've not, uh, met each other in person yet, so I'd love just to start here, maybe by one in the clock back and digging into your, your backstory a little bit. You grew up in Scotland. When did bikes first come into your life and when did mountain biking first become a thing for you? 

Yeah, I mean, I think Biking's been a part of my life for a long time.

[00:02:00] I, I, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a family that was very active. So I was actually, I remember riding a bike in like a little with stabilizers in the driveway at home. And I lived, um, in, in this kind of a small sort of village in Scotland. And we had a wood behind our house. Um, so we would actually go into the woods and try and make our own trails, even from a very young age.

Um, but this was before, this was when VHS was the thing. And you know, there was not much in the way of, of inspiration other than, you know, the odd, dodgy sort of grainy mountain bike movie back in the day, or, or, or on back then it was extreme tv, um, to on, on Sky, on Satellite. Um, but, um, yeah, we build like skinnys in the driveway before we even knew what skinnys were.

Um, build sketchy, uh, kickers with planks of wood. And, and I, I remember once I snapped a handlebar, 'cause I, I found out that three [00:03:00] bricks was too many. Two was. Was good. Uh, but three was too kicky and I found out that that made me get kicked forwards and I landed on the front wheel too heavy and snapped a handlebar.

So, um, yeah, a lot of it was just winging it, obviously as a lot of kids do, but with less of a sort of a playground that we have here in the cedar of sky. So yeah. 

That's really interesting. The last, uh, the podcast I was actually just telling you about our recorded last night, similar story I guess came from the uk kind of like minimum terrain, but that kind of led to this idea of maximum skill.

Yeah. 

And I know that's something we talk about a lot in our coaching is when often we don't have much to work with. 

Yeah. 

Be quite a skilled rider to Yeah. Be able to go off these sketchy kickers and actually hold it together. 

Yeah. Well, I mean, well I de definitely learned from mistakes as well, you know, so, but I, I think a lot of it for me back then was.

You know, I, there was an influence of Whistler and Squamish and, and, and BC [00:04:00] as a whole. 'cause I remember growing up, um, we, we actually were able to watch the legendary, um, like the drop in series. Um, and I remember, you know, my dad was really into biking as well. And so, you know, we'd go through this little cycle of I'd be meant to be doing homework.

And then he'd all of a sudden shout and say, Ross, come check this out. There's, there's mountain biking from Canada. And we'd go and watch this. And, and it was, that was obviously kind of one of the scenes of free ride. So I was always in this, this sort of tug of war of should have been studying, but was tempted by this other more interesting thing.

Um, and so I think that was a huge part of me that alongside snowboarding. Ultimately led me to want to always come over here, um, and experience it. Um, and I, and I think, you know, as well as like watching videos, that was always something I was very passionate about. I'm a big fan of watching things and, and trying to sort of, um, [00:05:00] just get inspired, a little bit inspired, but more, more being able to visualize how to do things through watching other people do it.

I'm not much of a risk taker myself. Maybe we'll get into that, but, um, I, I like to see stuff and then process it myself and then do it. And I think watching the, like cranked five, the new world disorder films growing up, they were, they were a big part of, of me coming here. So, 

yeah. Amazing. And growing up around bikes, did you ever have the thought that you might be one day doing this for a living riding bikes?

Oh, I absolutely not. I didn't even know you could do this for a living. Um. You know, it wasn't until I moved over here and I'd I, I'd already done a little bit of snowboard instructing in Scotland, and then I started working for the Whistle Blackcomb Snow School. And it was actually in my first season, I met Paul Howard, um, who is my Cassie Snowboard evaluator for the level two then.

And, and this was, I think in 2007 [00:06:00] and back then there was the mountain bike park and there was teaching, um, but there wasn't really sort of a, it didn't really feel as though it could be a career. Um, but then he told me what he was developing, um, with the certifications on that side. And then so that, that kind of just started that snowball of me being involved in that.

And, and it was really cool to think, oh, I could do the, the teaching, the coaching in the winter and then just roll it into the summer. And it's, it's a very similar style, but you're just working with a slightly different medium and that just kept things interesting for me. So. 

Yeah. Amazing. So you kind of moved to Canada for just snowboarding 

fun.

Yeah. 

And then realized, hey, I could do this some more instead of doing 

Yeah. I, I, I joked with my family that I was gonna have a gap decade, but, um, we're we're two decades. Yeah. 

And it's funny, isn't it, as both the, the snowboard, the ski coaching industry and then the bike coaching industry have matured.

It's now become, it's, well, it is a legitimate career and it has been for some time, eh, rather than [00:07:00] just being like a, a side job or a gap year job. 

Yeah, yeah. You know, some people say, oh, when are you gonna get a real job? And it's a bit of a funny question 'cause, you know, how do you define what a real, real job is?

Does real job mean you just get paid more? Or does it mean that you ultimately don't get to do something that you really enjoy on the daily? Um, to me, a real job is, uh, it's something that helps you to support the lifestyle that you want to live. Mm-hmm. For the most part, it's, it's doing that. So I'm, I'm pretty stoked.

Yeah, man, I love that. Excited to, to dive in a little bit more. Perhaps we can do that as we kind of dive into the, the mental side of riding. I know even just in exchanging a couple of emails back and forth, we, we share a lot of common ground, uh, but perhaps I've got to this point in different ways. So I'm curious, just like start off with a, a wide open question.

Like how important is the mental side of mountain biking for you? 

Oh, it's, it's huge. I mean, I think as a, as [00:08:00] someone who teaches, I'm always thinking about how we're also different as people. Um, and therefore we all interact with well learning danger progress so differently. That to me, it's actually what, like keeps me sort of.

Really interested in teaching because it's so personal as well. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it evolves as you age. I definitely, I, I've never been a, a, a sort of a risk taker, but I do notice even in myself, I'm 42 now, um, that I am even becoming a bit more, less, or a bit less tolerant of the idea of an injury.

Um, and so therefore, uh, and even, you know, I, I'm, I'm conscious of, you know, I want to do this for a long time. Um, I'm, I'm kind of comfortable in my own skin of what I can do. And therefore, I, in many ways, I'm, I've almost come to terms with things that I, [00:09:00] I will never, I know I'll never do Mm. But focus on maybe some of the finer details.

Um, and, and that keeps me going. You know, 

I really like that. 'cause I know a lot of riders will kind of feel like they get to a level where they plateau. And for whatever reason, whether it be having a family or work commitments or not wanting to get injured, they don't want to get to that next step because they don't wanna get injured yet.

They also still kind of miss all those good feelings we get when we're progressing and we're growing. Yeah. 

I guess, and that's, I think it's maybe even just redefining what the next step is. 

Mm-hmm. 

So it, the next step doesn't necessarily mean faster, bigger, higher, it could be just more dialed, more stylish.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, and you know, even for me, I, I, I've been able to wheelie relatively well for a long period of time, but it wasn't until I think 2019 that I actually, uh, that I made it a, a high priority to actually really [00:10:00] properly figure out manuals. Um, 'cause I, I could do, you know, your token sort of trail manual where you dip, you know, but it's not finding the balance point and make corrections.

Hold it. And, um, and I thought I'm a decent rider as a, as a thing that isn't a scary thing as such relative to doing a big jump or a gap. So I thought, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna battle and figure out what is currently inhibiting me not being able to do these and try and remove that. And then, and then as a result, I've been able to kind of do that like relatively well.

And even this past summer I was trying to work on LA land, so landing in manuals and I had a couple of fun ones of those. So yeah. 

Unreal. Yeah, definitely. Like, I think, let me think about like maneuvers, probably a couple at the pointier end of the stick that a lot of riders would love to do and have maybe tried and practiced a little bit that I guess majority of riders maybe haven't got to that point where [00:11:00] they're doing like the the party trick manual down the block.

How did you go about breaking that down? 

I mean, for me it's, I think it's, it was about establishing what was the biggest inhibiting factors. And, and that's actually something that I've tried to do a lot in my coaching is isolate what is the inhibitor, whether it is something technical, whether it's something mental.

Mm-hmm. And trying to just address that. Um, and for me, I think with the manual, the classic example is people tend to try and like throw their weight back, um, rather than kick the bike forward and sit, essentially sit down and drop the hips down rather than back. And for me that was the big thing because if, if I have the goal of throwing my weight back, what tends to happen is my shoulders will dip.

And then you've got that mass moving down against that rotation backwards, which would never get to the balance point. [00:12:00] Um, and it would result in you to extending your toes, my toes forwards and my legs would get, become straight and then I'd lose any adjustability I could get with my knees and hips. Um, the other thing was also trying to train my brain a little bit to not default to go for the rear brake.

Mm. Um, and that's probably the hardest one mentally is um, try, if you feel like you're about to loop out, don't necessarily default, especially with good disc brakes, often it will just bring the wheel down. So, um, I would try and focus on knees forwards to try and get my mask to do that, that piece of the correction rather than the break.

Yeah. Amazing. And how much of that do you think was like, training the actual physical movement versus I guess the fear and your hind brain kind of like holding you back from getting to that balance point and staying there? 

I feel like [00:13:00] with the manual, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say I, I, I've never been sort of like gripped with fear on them, but it's more a frustration that would kick in.

Um, and I feel like often, you know, you get frustrated, you get lifted up, goes down, lifted up, goes down, and therefore the mental battle is more through that frustration. But, um, now it, it is kind of made me more aware that if you're in the frustration phase, you're really close. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um. And, and if you persevere a little bit, work through it, then, then you'll actually get to that sweet spot of Okay.

I, I can intuitively find where I need to be. And I think this relates to a lot of aspects of riding as well. Um, 

that's really interesting. I think something listeners can take away if almost reframing that emotion of frustration as like, Hey, you're close is a good thing. 

Yeah. 

Stay out here. 

Because I think the, just the set, the sense of frustration means you, you can feel that you're close.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:00] And that's why it makes it frustrating. 

Yeah. 

Like if you're miles away, you'll never get, you won't necessarily be frustrated because you're miles away. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Totally. I'm curious, like, how much of these things do you think can be taught, say, in a skills coaching lesson versus being learned through, like actually doing through the mileage on the trail and perhaps surrounding yourself with riders who are doing these things?

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. It's actually something I've really been pondering a lot recently about how, you know, what stuff can we teach. Um, and I, and I, I think one of my strategies a lot with teaching is actually guiding people how to become self-sufficient and how to teach themselves rather than being reliant upon me as the coach.

Um, and I think partly is, is a lot of it is down to a mental approach of, of, of, of. Setting realistic goals and [00:15:00] expectations for one, um, as in if, if, say, say someone was to come for a, a session with either yourself or me, and they're an already advanced rider, if that rider's been riding for 10 plus years, um, is riding technical trails, they've already got a huge amount of riding under their belt.

So if we're trying to make adjustments, the, the only realistic gains that we can make with them are like half a percent, um, maybe 1% gains. Whereas when you're a beginner, if you're working with a beginner, you can take a beginner from zero scale on a bike to 20% quite quickly. Um, and then the, the steps forward become harder and harder to make.

So I think being, not being too hard on oneself is important and understanding the big picture of the goal is to, um, be in the game. For as long as possible with a bit of focus, and then knowing that, [00:16:00] that that interest will compound over time. You know, I often, I sometimes say to people, I, I like, it's kind of like investing.

If you want big quick gains, you actually have to be okay with the chance of a big crash. 

Mm-hmm. 

Which is often what pros, almost like, especially when they have a accelerated learning curve. They almost, they do your teenagers, they, they take bigger chances, but they might make a big gain, but it might come at the cost of something.

But for most people, and maybe most people who are, who are tuning in, um, as riders, um, maybe you have jobs, families, all that kind of stuff. Um, maybe we have to go a bit more of a conservative approach and take little gains over a longer period of time. And then over a, you know, six months a year, if you're to look back at your progress, you'll think, huh, I actually over that time I gained 5%.

Hmm. Yeah. I love that. A very wise approach. And it's, it's nice to hear as mountain bikes because I know a lot of [00:17:00] like newer people getting into it kind of almost get addicted to like that progression at the start and that more hanging fruit. And then we do get into a stage where there's, there's higher risk and we're already, we've already learned a lot of those foundation skills.

So it's like right, that low fruit's gone, now we've gotta go put some, some smaller fruit up the top and it's gonna take longer to pick. 

Yeah. 

 You mentioned as we were chatting in our emails before this podcast, a lot of your, your coaching of the mind has perhaps come from intuition and from a sense of like, this is what the student needs versus maybe coming from a, a textbook or academia.

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, if you, I'd love to hear you speak on that. Like how does that generally play out as coaching from intuition? 

Yeah. I think, like I said, uh, before, you know, everyone's different and, um, I think when you have, when you work over many, many years in a coach, you get exposed to so many individuals, um, and how they, like I said, interact with, um, progress, fear, all that kind of stuff.[00:18:00] 

And I was actually pondering that question a little bit and thinking, is there an, is there kind of a, an analogy to be had? And maybe you can tell me if you think this is a good one or not. Um, 'cause I've been thinking about this and, you know, if a coach kind of looks at a student they work with as, as almost like a new trail that you've never ridden.

Um, if you have one lesson, one lesson with them, you're basically, that's exact, that's the analogy of, of sort of riding a trail for the first time. Mm-hmm. And you don't know the trail. So yeah, if you're an experienced rider or, um, you can basically sort of read and react quite quickly and you can actually do a pretty good job straight away.

Whereas if you're, you're inexperienced, then you're probably gonna make a load of mistakes along the way. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, and I think, and then, then, you know, the analogy would go a bit further if you're, so if you're working with a very advanced rider, they're like an advanced trail. So they might have, they might have things [00:19:00] like things that have happened to them in the past that have created a little bit of mental scarring that, you know, you, you need to kind of un understand.

And therefore for more, maybe more advanced rider, cultivating a relationship with them enables you to. Do a better job, um, and to be able to find the little things that connect with their progression better than if it's just a one off session. So, um, yeah. I don't know if you, what you think of that 

great analogy.

Yeah. 

You know, 

it's like an expert rider can write a trail blind pretty well. 

Yeah. 

Uh, versus a novice rider. But if you get an expert rider on a trail they're really familiar with, that's where you really get that synergy and the magic happens. 

Yeah, exactly. So, um, and yeah, I think, you know, we're all, we're all so unique and different that I, I, I think the, the, the thing we have to do as coaches is go into any given session and go, I'm not gonna make any assumptions here and I'm gonna try and learn [00:20:00] the, the client or athlete I'm working with.

And, um, and I think the biggest thing as well for me is, like, for us as coaches, we have to genuinely care about, um, wanting to help them get better. I feel like some people definitely do, do a, a teaching job saying the bi part, just 'cause they want to get a free pass. They wanna, you know, just, um, ride a lot.

Um, and they're not necessarily invested. But I think people who are career coaches like ourselves, you know, we, we put a lot of energy into helping people. Mm-hmm. Um, and therefore we're gonna make more of an effort to do that. I think so. 

Yeah. You've gotta really be doing it for the love of it, don't you?

Yeah. And I don't know, I, I'd like to ask you actually, like, what if you're working with people a lot, do you ever find that at the end of the day, you're just absolutely fried mentally because you've given a lot of yourself 

all the time. And even, I just lost my train of thought in this podcast. Before I mentioned, I've been having [00:21:00] conversations with people on the phone all day about mountain bike coaching and about the global trips have been run in.

So yeah, a lot of the time, by the end of the day it's like. I feel like I struggle to string a sentence together. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Um, but that's because I've, I've put so much of my energy and my focus on like stringing really intentional sentences together all day and 

Yeah. 

With people. Yeah. 

Yeah. And do you ever, do you ever find as well that, you know, you almost spend so much time giving something some of yourself to other people that it actually takes away a little bit from your own self?

Um, from time to time. 

I mean, it, it can do, and it's a, it's a conversation we often have with other coaches, isn't it? This feeling of being overworked. Uh, that's definitely not just a physical thing of like, I've rode my bike every day for six days. It can be a mental and emotional thing as well of like, the cup's kind of empty on it.

Some, some time to recharge. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think with biking as well, being such a, like in your face, sort of [00:22:00] relatively high risk. Discipline. 

Yeah, 

there's a lot, lot of that going on. Right. 

You've gotta be on, don't you, to not only make good decisions and keep people safe, but also give them something and help 'em learn as well.

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. That's kind of a question I wanted to ask you is like, building on this idea of the, the coach's energy. You're obviously known from bringing, but bringing in that kind of calm, grounded energy into a lesson. But you also get to work with a lot of other coaches or people training to be coaches.

So I wanted to ask you like, how important is the, the physiological state of the coach in shaping the, the students' confidence? 

Yeah. I think, um, it's, it's really important. I think, you know, 'cause it's one of those, um, unspoken, um, bits. It is the body language. 

Mm-hmm. 

You know, um, there's a, there's a balance to be, to me, be struck between projecting confidence but not.

Too much to the point where [00:23:00] it's, well, like arrogance or, um, sets a false sense of security, in my opinion. Um, and I mean, for me, I, I don't find it hard to be somewhat neutral because I'm from Scotland and I'm more of stoic nature. So I, I, some, I often joke that, um, a British or a Scottish, um, uh, five on the excitement level is like a Canadian one or a North American one.

It's, you know, we're, we're, our, our stock setting is way lower down. And so I, and I often wonder, well, maybe some people might, um, confuse that in myself for me not being interested because I'm a bit more low key normally. But, so I definitely find for me personally, I have to. Maybe this is why maybe sometimes at the end of days I'm absolutely knackered [00:24:00] is I have to sort of dial up a little bit of my tone and things like that, because otherwise I'm maybe a little bit too monotone and all that, so, 

right.

Kinda, yeah. Building up that energy a little bit. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

It's a fine line, isn't it? I don't know. I don't know if this is a thing so much in North America or in Scotland, but in Australia we have a saying called tall poppy syndrome. 

Mm-hmm. 

And it's kind of really looked down upon to be perceived as being arrogant.

The idea that all the poppies should be, oh yeah, that's, that probably 

comes from England. 

Probably. Does we, we come from England originally or so. Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. So, 

um. But it is an interesting one because I find a lot of the time that will then hold a rider back from actually seeing themself as being good or 

mm-hmm.

Being 

competent. And I think there's a, there's a difference there between like truly believing that, yeah, I'm good and owning that and then's sense of maybe having to tell everyone else how good you are, which maybe could be more on the 

other. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this, there's actually something [00:25:00] that, this kinda leads into probably something that I've been thinking of or trying to remove from people's, um, sort of opinion, not opinions of mindset, is the idea of showing off.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, for example, say you have a, like a kid who's just loves biking and then they do a wheelie, wheelies and stuff like that. If anyone ever says, oh, or says, oh, show off. I, I hate it when people say that because chances are that kid's gonna do that wheelie, whether there's people there or not. Um, and all that's happening there is that kid is just exploring what they can do on a bike.

And so I, so I try and actually encourage people to not even think of playing on the bike as being showing off. It's just exploring and, and tapping into that sort of inner child nature and, and getting better at biking. 'cause I can almost guarantee you that anyone, if anyone thinks of the best rider they [00:26:00] know they're the one that's goofing around in a parking lot, uh, not on a trail.

Um, and it's not, they're not showing off. Sometimes they might be, but they're not necessarily showing off. They're, they're doing it 'cause that's how they express themselves on a bike and that's how, and they get way more practice time than anyone that doesn't do that. 

It's the best kind of practice too, isn't it?

When there's zero pressure and we're literally just playing around for the sake of playing around because it's fun. Yeah. We're not worried about anyone else perceiving us. We're just doing it for the sake of it. 

Yeah. 

I think as an adult, like. I kind of had this realization that I was often holding myself back from, you know, there'd be other people doing a wheelie up the fire road when you're climbing up.

And if I thought I couldn't wheelie as good, I wouldn't pop one. 

Yeah. 

Or on the other end of the scale, like not wanting to be perceived as a, a show off or the coach or whatever. Yeah. So these days I'm trying to lean into more of just that playful attitude of like, this is fun for me. Then it's a yes.[00:27:00] 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Would would I do this if no one was here? Yes. 

It's a good, just simple self check for riders to do too. I know here in like Squamish and Whistler, there's a lot of like this featured bagging culture in mountain biking where, you know, it's this rock roll and that rock roll and this drop, and oftentimes it can be hard to distinguish between like, am I doing this for me because it's fun for me?

Mm. Or am I doing this because all my buddies have done it or because everyone who's at the level I perceive myself to be at has done it. 

Yeah. 

Or is it for Instagram? That's a good question to ask. Like, is this fun for me today? 

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. What, what's the motivation behind you doing it? Is, is key.

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I think though there the, it can be, it can drive progress though. If you do have a healthy. Sort of friendly rivalry with a mate. For example, like one of my mates, um, when I first moved here, um, actually Steve Matthews divorce sprung. We, we [00:28:00] became good mates and we're very similar level in terms of ultimately what are the end result of what we could do.

But we each had our little strengths, you know, he's in, he's unreal at wheelies. Um, you know, and, and he's, you know, he's, you know, we're both pretty good on the steeps. Maybe I was a bit more dynamic and could do corners a little bit tighter back then, but it, we almost had this un um, spoken rule where if he did something, I had to do it and vice versa.

So, and sometimes that can be good. 

Yeah, I love that. It's an interesting one. Isn't that, because like that same thing could become an unhealthy relationship for someone else, but what I kind of picked up in your tone and your energy as you're talking about it, is that competition, that rivalry was fun.

Yeah, 

you and Steve. 

Yeah. It was like a little bit of banter and almost like if he did something I'd be like, ah, Steve. Jeez, he had to do that. 

Yeah. But it's like a relaxed, like fun like, oh, now I've gotta do that. Versus [00:29:00] like the pressure of like, oh, they did it, so now I have to. 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's always in person as well.

It's not like if he did something and he came back and he, and he'd say, oh, I did this. It's not like I'd go, oh shit, I need to go back and do that on my own. It was always just in the moment. 

Yeah. 

Whereas I suppose nowadays, yeah. With, with social media, it's like, you know, people are trying to bag these features and it's just like a cascade of people trying to do them and, and I think that potentially could be a little bit unhealthy or, or 'cause often, you know, the camera makes stuff look easier.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I know we, uh, kind of seen that firsthand. We were just chatting about the trip. I just ran down in Tasmania and a lot of us had spent lots of time on YouTube looking at the trails and stuff down there. And then we got to Deia and I'm like, wow, these, these rocks labs are the real deal.

Yeah, 

yeah. It's definitely, uh, yeah, good one to kind of revisit in real life. It's like, oh, okay. I came here wanting to do these things. 

Oh 

yeah. How I'm standing here? Is it still a [00:30:00] yes or is it a no? 

Yeah, I've, I think now I've, I've done enough of what you are doing to know that, you know, even in last year I went to Queenstown, um, and uh, there's this trail like, I think it's called, um, banjo Snapper and I, and I've seen like POVs of it and you go there and admittedly I went there probably at the wrong time.

It was just after a long flight and I went up and pedaled and went and checked out. But I also did that 'cause I knew that like, 'cause I was fresh off a plane and. I wouldn't put pressure on myself to ride it, but I ended up honestly walking like the top bit. 

I've walked that trail as well. Don't worry.

The features are way more like active 

hop off rock feature, right? 

Oh no, that's a different one. It, it is like it's got this kind of exposed kind of loose shoot to drop, mandatory drop to start with, uh, 

that's right down to Gorge Road. 

Yeah. Yeah. And um. I was there on my own, you know, [00:31:00] jet lag, been flying for like 20 hours and Yeah.

Uh, but I, and uh, but I was just like, no way. It's because on the, on A POV it just looks like the drop off the end is literally three feet, but it's, it's like overhead high. 

Yeah. 

Pretty much. So, 

yeah. Good to recognize. And that's another good point too, is even if like, oh no, I've got the skills to ride this.

Recognizing where we're at that day. 

Mm-hmm. 

For you though, yeah. Take into account like, yeah, probably a little bit jet lagged here. Energy isn't as good as it could be. Maybe another day I could ride this, but 

Yeah, for 

sure. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

And I, I find I, you know, it's, it, that's, that can be a challenge actually when co I find when coaching some young, um, ripping riders locally.

'cause sometimes, you know, we get to the point where we might coach people who are actually better than us. Um, and I think that dynamic can be quite tricky 'cause they might still ask you, Hey, do you, can you demo it? 'cause I might have done the feature in the [00:32:00] past, but I often take that as an opportunity to really highlight my own process of, of, um, risk management.

And if I look at it and I don't visualize success, then I'll basically, rather than just say, oh, I'm not gonna do it, I'll say, you know what, I'm, I'm not feeling great on my bike today. It's been a long week. I'm tired. I'm not, I know I'm not riding up near my level. So for that reason, I'm not gonna do it.

And I think especially with young riders when coaching them, I think to qualify the reason for your decision making is really important because it helps them do the same. 

Yeah, I like that. And that's great leadership as well, isn't it? It's showing them that we don't always have to perform, we don't always have to do these things.

Yeah. 

And I also like the rational approach there. Almost like explaining it to others, but also explaining it to ourselves. I kind of explain that to my students as not closing the door. Hmm. Because I do find, as soon as I've said, Hey, I'll never do that, or mm-hmm. 

I can't do that. [00:33:00] Yeah. 

I 

can't do it. I go back next time and that it's still kind of haunting me that I didn't do it the last time.

Yeah. 

Whereas if I rationalize, I say, Hey, oh yeah, I've been feeling super tired, super fatigued on my bike today. Not gonna take any risk. I can go back there next time feeling better and it's like, I've forgotten about the last time. 

Yeah. And even it can be things like just something random in your life that can just have you off your game.

You know? You might have, I don't know, like, I don't know, you might have had, you know, something annoying happen, um, that's affected you, that's completely external of your riding. If that's on your mind, then that's not a good time to do it. 

Yeah, totally. I want to talk a bit about confidence versus ability, because I know quite often riders will find that their confidence will lag their technical ability.

Why do you think that is and what do you do about it? 

That's, that's a great one. I, I would actually say Paul, like my good friend Paul [00:34:00] and, and boss in, the summer, he, he's in this boat, as far as I'm concerned. His skill is way higher than his confidence when it gets to say exposed features and stuff like that.

Um, and this is again, I think something that might, my, in my opinion, is potentially tied a little bit to personality. Um, and, and how, you know, how risk, uh, averse someone might be just naturally. Um, and so therefore, but, but then you thinking, well, how do we overcome this? And that's a, that's a tricky one, right?

Like I think the only, the only way to overcome it, I think, is to build yourself back up over time so that the step to get to that more challenging thing feels smaller. Um, 'cause I, for me personally, I'm thinking, well, have I done something similar to this before? Um, if the answer is yes, it's like, well, what is [00:35:00] different?

Is it the runout? Is it the dirt? Is it is, is it the grip? Like, what's different? And then I, then I sort of go through that mental checklist to go, okay, only this one thing is different and it maybe is like a foot bigger or something. Um, and then I can sort of rejig my brain to think, okay, actually I, I've done this before.

Essentially. 

Totally. Yeah. I like that kind of that baby step approach and almost like referring to our mental library of past experiences to 

Yeah. 

Rational conclusion of like, yes, I can do this, or no, I, I do actually need to go and do some more practice or training on this particular aspect. 

Yeah. Yeah.

But I think, yeah, and the, the stuff you were talking about that I think does almost fall into the category of there is, there has to be some sort of leap of faith and to, to basically trust that you've done. I think the key is you need to be able to trust that your body is gonna, um, [00:36:00] react in an au autonomous way, in positively autonomous way, um, and go with the thing, um, versus backing away and, and trying to protect you and, and not committing.

Yeah. Do you have any. Any kind of cues or any process you rely upon when you find yourself in that situation where you're like, right up, I've got this, but it still feels scary. I'm about to make that leap of faith. 

Yeah, I think for me it's not, for me personally, it's not spending too much time, um, processing it.

It's like making a quick sort of, am I in, am I out? Um, but also I think for me, I like to almost, um, distract myself. For example, if I'm going to a bigger, big jump that I'm a bit nervous of, 'cause I don't consider that to be like a, a big strength of mine. Um, I'll leave it. I'll do [00:37:00] something like, like ride into the jump as long as it's, it's not a complex runup and just sort of look at my stem, think about something else, then look up and then almost give myself no choice but to be in the thing and then I react, um, auto automatically.

Um, that could be perceived as being a potentially risky way of doing it. And, and it's maybe a bit specific to certain jumps. Um, 

it's really, it is really interesting 'cause I know we spend our days getting mountain bikers to look further ahead. 

Yeah. 

On the trail 

or, or, or it's almost like the way I look at that, it would be not necessarily looking down, but like, do something to get you out into a, a relaxed posture actually.

So it might even be for me sitting down, um, on the approach to a jump and then going stand up, go, um, or 

like kind of cues you like, I'm relaxed, I'm safe. 

Yeah. Or like, as we, we talk a [00:38:00] lot in mountain biking about neutral. Uh, to me neutral is the only position you can guarantee being centered in. So. Get to neutral, breathe, commit sort of thing.

Um, whereas say you're riding into a jump, for example, if you don't return to neutral, you might be a little bit low and reared bias because you're a little, but because you're potentially just, whether you know it or not, you're, you're, your mind is, is trying to protect you from dangers. So it might move you like a couple of clicks back without even knowing.

And then when the bike loads, it's loading the rear up more than the front and then you might get tossed over the front. 

Mm-hmm. 

So yeah, in a way it's almost like establishing a, a pre-shot routine like a golfer might is I think is a good way of doing it as well. 

I like that it really resonates with me.

I do something similar in the sense I kind of repeat a couple of words to myself and these words will change [00:39:00] over time for different things or at different times, but more often than not as either like a, a breath or a press in there. And that kind of signals to me that press is like standing back up on my bike resetting and taking a big exhale before the next jump or feature.

Yeah. 

So, yeah, very similar. And that's kind of how I, I try and ground myself in those easy bits and not necessarily think about the hard bits until I'm in them. 

Yeah. 

On a trail that I'm familiar with, perhaps there's other trails where you're, you're thinking about it, you know, ahead of time, like that's coming up.

That's prepare. 

Yeah. Yeah, and I think with mountain biking as well, you know, it's a bit different to things like skiing and snowboarding and the, you know, the, there's these set trails, so you don't always get to choose how the runout is on some features. Um, you know, in, in the winter, if I'm doing a drop or something, I'll, first thing I'll look at is what's the landing look like?

Where do I go when I land? And you can plan kind of where you're gonna control your speed and all that. And for [00:40:00] sure that's what you, you know, we, we do when we're riding our bikes, but sometimes we might have a rock slab that has just a sharp catch berm. You think? Well, the runout doesn't allow me to just carry a bunch, just be, you know, like filthy ape in the bike park is a good example, I think.

'cause you know, where it's actually, I put that in the visually intimidating, technically relatively straightforward category because you, um, you can just run it out and you've got several football fields like distance after. Um, but I think for anyone who's, who, who does that kind of feature, if they're looking to do, take that sort of size feature into say, a Squamish trail.

I mean, you'd, you'd probably be on the same boat. Is that, um, the way you do that is you, you do that feature, but you imagine there's a turn at the bottom and you try and even though you don't have to, you try and slow down and make an imaginary turn as you're training so that you [00:41:00] know you can do it in the moment.

Yeah. It's a great way for, well, training for any feature at any level, I think is creating that variation and getting playful on something you are comfortable on first. 

Yeah. 

Like you say, yeah, make a corner afterwards or change where your break-in zones are, or whatever that variation is will help you train for that feature at the next level.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Allowing that safe mistake. 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm curious for you, I call this this kind of idea of like calling my own bullshit because I know I identify with like being a really analytical rider that is quite cautious as well. 

Mm-hmm. 

I don't like taking undue risk and I, I generally take a long time to progress and, and try new things.

Mm-hmm. 

There is other times, however, where I'm like, I've been walking around all these things I know I could ride. And sometimes it does just take me like that little mental switch or that re reset like, right, let's, let's do what you know you can do here. And I'll kind of call myself out and mm-hmm.

Ride those things some days when I feel like it. Do you [00:42:00] ever experience anything like that yourself? Where you get stuck being overly cautious? 

Um, yeah, I think so. Um, but I've, I think for me, more often than not, I'm motivated by, um, riding different trails. Not necessarily sort of revisiting ones I might have done in the past, especially if they're a high consequence.

Um, but yeah, I think sometimes, yeah, sometimes I think I do find myself going, you know what, just have a word with myself and just, and, but I think for me, I. If I do that, I basically make the call at the top of the trail rather than at the feature. Um, especially if I've seen it in person. Um, but then some of them, I'm honestly okay with just calling it and be like, you know what, I'm okay to not do that.

Hmm. 

Um, you know, I, I, [00:43:00] I live to ride tomorrow and not live to ride another day and, and some stuff for me is just maybe not worth the risk. Although I'm mad. I, I do all, I do sometimes wonder if they would be the type of features where if I just do them, I'd probably be like, that was, that wasn't that hard.

Yeah. 

Why haven't I done this for ages? 

Yeah, totally. And like that's why that might the coin, but then there's other features where it's like, that could be a massive accident on the side of that. 

Yeah. But that also might be down to the fact that I find that one of the downsides I think to coaching a lot is you end up.

In a, always being in a position of responsibility, uh, for people's well wellbeing whilst riding. So that almost heightens your sense of risk because of that. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, but also I may al also be riding with riders where I am the, the, the best and [00:44:00] therefore I'm not, I don't get a demo myself. 

Yeah. 

Um, or, or, um, or the level I'm riding at, the intensity of I'm riding at doesn't keep my own skills sharp enough so that when I have a day off, um, I can go and perform.

So I think that for sure affects me a lot. Um, and for me, even on days off, because I do ride a lot, I, I do other things like I'll play golf or I'll go for a solo adventure, e-bike ride or big thing I'm into, um, in for the last sort of five years is trials Moto. Um. So it's, it's just, it is different enough that it's, uh, keeps my brain kind of engaged for when I'm at work.

But, um, it's similar enough that it gives me a similar thrill. 'cause we're going up those rock slab. We might be coming down on a mountain bike. 

Yeah. That's awesome. I'm always curious for riders that do a lot of other sports. Obviously you're [00:45:00] doing snowboarding at a high level, you're playing golf, you're now riding trails.

Motos, what's one of the biggest things you've learned from one of these other sports that's then kind of helped you back in your mountain biking? 

Um, well I think the, so first thing I'll qualify that with is I'm not a good golfer. Um, but golf's interesting 'cause you can, you can be a bit of a hack, but like, I'm a, I can hit the ball okay, but sometimes I might be able to hit a shot where it will like, go close to the hole that even the best pro in the world couldn't guarantee that they could do that.

And. For sure. It's more likely to be fluke on my part, but it's kind of cool that you can do that stuff, like you could chip in and stuff like that. So you can have these brief moments of feeling like the best golfer in the world. Um, but I think the biggest thing for me is I like doing different things because it, it opens up another, um, learning curve for me.[00:46:00] 

Um, so especially with trials, you know, there's a, there's a lot of crossover with mountain biking, obviously because you're riding bikes, but, um, it's different enough that I'm not as good at it. Um, so it feels cool to get on that progression curve and feel that progress. So in a way it's kind of made me tap into, um, what I hope students I work with and feel when I teach them.

Yeah. It's a useful tool as a coach. Isn't that coming back into that beginner's mindset and remembering what that feels like. You've been riding since you were a kid, so that's a, yeah. You know, you're, you're 30 years from being a beginner biker yourself, but uh, yeah. You go and ride a trails motorbike and you remember what that's like and Yeah.

Some of the challenges you've come up on and how that feels. 

Yeah. And even, you know, like when I did, um, board across coaching, um, we, we would use skateboarding as a, as a cross training tool because it's all about [00:47:00] flow and carrying your momentum through with un propelled momentum. Um, and I'm not a good skateboarder, but even just the mantle side of going to a skate park and feeling what it's like to be not very good, it helps me connect with Okay.

Like this is definitely something. Imagine the people that show up to Whistler Bike Park and their only trail that they're ready for is easy. Does it like the amount of like. Stress of, of being in that environment and you've got all these people like busting whips over the last jump on a line, like going super fast.

You know, it, it definitely helps me connect with, you know, what the full range of confidence, um, and, and what can affect it. 

Yeah. Even that intimidation factor hey, of like being in a skate park and there's people around you that are really competent and you're trying to learn. 

Yeah. 

Can be a little bit like, I guess yeah, 

I would normally just [00:48:00] go at early in the morning.

Yeah. 

There's usually a fun, a fun cruisey crew early in the morning at the skate park. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Same with the dirt jumps actually. So if anyone's like a bit nervous of going to the dirt jumps, ummour is usually a good time. 

Yeah. It's also interesting, isn't it? Like the other side of that. I know I've got a, a cruiser board.

I go to the skate park occasionally terrible at it. And then, yeah, I spend a lot of time learning to ride dirt jumps with, uh, coach Mike Sousa in Whistler there last year. And it was really nice for me realizing like how supportive everyone was, even though I perceived them as being a little bit intimidating because they're so much better than me.

Yeah. Everyone was like genuinely stoked for like, Hey, you just did your first run through those small jumps there. That's awesome. Good for you. Yeah, it's a cool community. Um, I'm curious, I know like a lot of the, the clients we get come in, uh, to work with us, we often talk about like riding below their potential.

So I wanted to dive into that topic a little bit. What do you think [00:49:00] usually keeps riders stuck riding below their true capabilities and how do you work through that with. 

Um, I mean, I, I think it is, it is probably a little bit tied to the previous question about, um, you know, mentally knowing if you're, you, you might have the skills to do something, but you haven't tried it yet.

Um, I think it, it just depends on the time someone's put in and how skilled they are. Um, you know, and it, it could be physical, you know, like for me, I'm not the most flexible person in the world, so I know that, that my physical, this physical side of me is, is basically going to limit my ultimate potential.

Mm-hmm. 

And actually it is an interesting question 'cause I have actually wondered, you know, um, have I chronically been underperforming or, uh, my [00:50:00] own personal potential, or if I was. The same person but grew up in Whistler, what would that potential look like relative to how I know a lot of the teenagers ride here?

Yeah. Um, because I didn't, I didn't have, uh, I, I had an early exposure to biking, but I didn't have a, a peer group to push. I didn't have the terrain, um, didn't have the, well, I mean, bikes back then, all bikes kind of sucked until, you know, the, 

you had stuff 

in it like two thousands. Well, well actually like the 2015 and on.

So, um, yeah, it's an interesting one. 'cause I think, yeah, it, it, it just depends on the time, time in the game, I think, and time in the game. Exposure to, you know, a good environment for learning, um, and exposure to a good, [00:51:00] um. Examples, whether it be with a coach from a young age and friends, or just a good group, like you say, maybe at, at like a skate park or, or set of dirt jumps where you've all got the common bond of wanting to get bare.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, and I think, I mean, the reality is a lot of people have like a ton of potential. So, but I think for me, I, yeah, I, I think I've almost, in terms of miles under, under the hood, I, I feel like for me, I'm personally at a stage where, um, I don't know what my potential is now. Um, and even it, it kind of, it is an interesting thing to think of.

And, you know, I'm 42. How much more, how many more years do I actually realistically have of what I would potentially call high performance within, within my physical capabilities? Um. That, that almost [00:52:00] becomes quite confronting when I think that that's not potentially that much time. So I guess it depi depends on what you define by potential.

That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I grapple with that as well. And you know, I'm, I'm 30 so or 31, still have a little bit behind you, but I'm already starting to think about these same things. But ultimately I keep coming back to like the answers in the path we don't know, do we? And like all we can do is give it our best shot and you know, from a strength per perspective, do that work off the bike from a mobility perspective, do that work.

And then from a skills perspective, like staying sharp and continuing that learning curve both with the technical skills and mental skills and everything else that comes into it. So 

yeah, and I think it, yeah, ultimately depends on what you define by potential. 'cause um, it's not necessarily like. To win races or to go fast, it's, it could just be defined in a different way.

So, 

yeah. I mean, for me it's a feeling of like, I feel [00:53:00] like there's that, that knowing of what we're capable of and what's on the table for us. 

Mm-hmm. 

And like learning more and more about how the brain works and how our memory works. For me, I keep coming back to like this, this idea of like needing to prove it to our, our brain and our body, our nervous system.

Mm. Quite often I'll be like, yeah, I could, I could see how that works, but I don't yet have the confidence just go and do it today. 

Yeah. Right. 

I put in the hours and put in the work really intentionally thinking about that goal and doing things that are similar. Eventually I'll be like, yeah, now I know I can do it.

Yeah. So you, you really are you really driven, um, by and motivated by that sort of feeling of, of overcoming a challenge? Is that like something that really drives you? 

I feel like it's a great feeling when you do. Like even going back to like learning to ride dirt jumps properly last year, like 

mm-hmm.

You go from this state of being like fearful and nervous and unsure to then kicking off that first jump in a pack of 10 and it [00:54:00] just feels amazing. And then you're like, now the next one. And then that feels just as good. And you get to do that 10 times and in one jump line and it's, yeah. Such a cool process.

And I guess each time you become wiser as well because you're like, okay, well I broke down the last one. I ticked that off, felt really good. Now I wanna do the next one and the next one. 

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's definitely one thing that, because I look at those dirt jumps and I think, Hmm, that's, it'd be ni, it'd be nice, but I like they, they look kind of on the scary side for me.

Like I've done the right hand ones in the wi well, I've not done the the middle one, the bigger ones. And 

yeah, I've not done that one yet either. 

And even though the one at the nesters one that seems like it's gotten like way deeper, but it's like the shortest gap. But you're like, this is just gonna launch me up.

And 

Yeah. 

But I think that to me, that's, it's a time, to me that's just sheerly not doing, spending time doing it. Mm. You know, [00:55:00] and, and going through that evolution of how you'll look at it to how you'll eventually get comfortable with it. 

Yeah. Yeah. I think it is a time thing for sure. For me, it was really cool kind of putting myself in my student's shoes and hiring a coach from my own 

Yeah.

And 

kind of breaking down some of those Yeah. Feelings I had around the steep lips and the fear, and actually just really going about it in a process orientated way 

mm-hmm. 

Was, yeah. It was really cool seeing how you could take something that was big and scary and, and make it fun. So, 

yeah. And it, it must have been really valuable for you as a coach to just put yourself in that student mindset.

It was Absolutely. And then all the way through to, you know, like we said, we're both kind of pretty cautious riders. We take things pretty slow. For that project, I intentionally went further out on the risk curve than I'd usually go. Mm. And also shortened the process. That was both really cool because I made in insane progression in a 

right 

amount of time and had lots of fun.

But then also, like in hindsight, I think I didn't actually [00:56:00] have the mileage I needed 

Right. To 

adjust that skill set. I was working on the back flip. So to adjust that to a different jump in a different 

environment. Yeah. 

Right. I don't think I quite had that spidey sense of like, this what's needed. And as a result of that, I miscalculated, I I came in too 

fast.

Yeah. 

But did you, when you embarked on that sort of goal, did you. Did you sort of consciously come to terms with you? Like, I am okay with the idea of getting somewhat hurt, whether it be like a broken bone or, or whatever. Like did you actually like almost say that to yourself? 

I do. Like, I think that's like by general consensus with mountain biking is, I don't think about the downside or the injury.

Mm-hmm. 

I don't spend time focusing on that, but I'm also Okay like surfing that wave. 

Okay. Yeah. 

Where we're mountain biking, we're taking risks. Like we'll do everything we can to, to minimize them. 

Mm-hmm. 

It's like if we decide we're gonna drop in on a big wave and that's maybe like [00:57:00] three times bigger than the other waves have already surfed, we've also gotta be okay with like the downside.

Right. 

Yeah. 

That was something I did. And like, will I go out on that risk curve that far again? And in that short, it's probably not, yeah. Expensive. It was all of those things. Right. But it was also, that was a lot of learning that came out of that too. Yeah, focus on the positive sides and then hopefully not have that same painful experience again.

Yeah. It's funny, I, I feel like I'm a very different person on a snowboard, um, than I am on a mountain bike because of the risk factors, especially on a powder day, you know, when it's three feet of powder, you feel like invincible somewhat and you could just launch and jump and, but I'm not that way at all on a mountain bike.

Like I will not seek out these sort of sniper trail gaps that are more than say, two or three bike lengths long. [00:58:00] Um, whereas on a snowboard, you know, I'll speculate like a lot on like these because I can get away with it more. 

Yep. 

So, and actual fact, I, you know, there's like, sometimes you might ask that, that almost like a silly question of if you could have a superpower, what would you have, what would you choose?

Um, I mean, if you're smart, you'd say probably like flying or teleportation. 'cause you could get somewhere really quickly. But I've almost thought it'd be really cool if you could be unbreakable or, or un inable so you could potentially like, feel the, the impact and all that. But you wouldn't break, 

right?

Because then you could just go on your bike and just try all these wild things. 

Hmm. 

And somewhat experienced a little bit of the pain of crashing. So it's not like you don't have anything to lose such, but [00:59:00] you, your ultimate or, or it could be like, heal very quickly like Wolverine. 

Yeah, it does. I'd like that too.

I guess riding into an airbag or a foam fits kind of the, the closest thing we've got to that for now, you don't wanna crash, but if do, it's usually okay. Kind of talking of riding in three feet of powder kind of reminded me of some of the riding conditions we've had lately. It's kind of early spring here in Squamish.

Yeah. We've had these, you know, grippy Loy trails that have just been unreal. 

Yeah. 

But then I kind of get into this like compounding confidence sometimes where I get a little bit overexcited and have to remind myself that like, yeah, conditions are awesome and like, yeah, pretty soft. Uh, but also there's still the risk of riding mountain biking.

So 

yeah, 

check. 

Nice. 

I wanted to talk a bit here about sports sense. Obviously we've talked lots about all the in-person coaching you're doing and you've done over the years, but a big project you've been working on over the last couple of years has been one of the founders of Sportsense. How did [01:00:00] that all come about for you and what is your role as the co-founder there?

Yeah. Thanks. Um, and, and thanks also for being one of the earliest adopters of it. It's, it means a lot and we've definitely like, loved having your own, your feedback, um, to make, make it as, as good as it can be and continue to make it better. Um, it really just came about 'cause I think, um, you know, I've been in the, the coaching world for a while, both in winter and summer.

Um, and I kind of got to a stage where I was thinking, well, I've kind of, especially locally, um, I felt like I've kind of, you know, gone through all the search, blah, blah, blah. You know, I've, you know, but like, what could I do next? That wouldn't mean basically creating my own business. Um, 'cause I, I, I don't, I don't want to.

Potentially try and compete with other people like yourself, you know? And even with my relationship, same team. Oh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna [01:01:00] like, try and compete with, with friends essentially. So, and I was thinking, well, what can I do? You know, like I'm getting a bit older, um, you know, getting out on the trails, working outside in all conditions all the time.

You know, it's, it's starting to become maybe harder. That's another reason why I tried to get an e-bike. So that would help with that, which has been awesome. But I'm just thinking what can I do that can potentially, um, use some of the sort of knowledge and sort of industry equity have potentially built up, um, that can ultimately help all coaches, um, uh, whether in terms of sort of being able to.

Offer a tool that can help them provide, uh, an improved either in-person experience, through good analysis tools, or even just like one of the ones I'm really stoked on is having the easy way of giving someone a, a [01:02:00] good post session wrap up, including the videos you might have taken on their session. As well as whether it be like, I quite like, 'cause we've got a little, uh, voice to text thing that can do a little bit of a wrap up.

'cause quite often I think a lot of people finish a session and you maybe in the past might give them a verbal bit of feedback, but they might take it in, in the moment, but they don't, they can't refer back to it. Um, so that, improving that as well as we can now, um, include reference videos, which is, which I think is kind of a cool thing.

'cause as, as I said at the beginning, I, I personally really believe in watching riding a lot. Um, and it doesn't have to be an instructional video. Even just like watching a mountain bike movie, um, just absorbing good riding I think does a lot for your brain to dissect it. Um, you know, so then you can gain, gain that, um, inspiration.

Um, but also potentially like the motivation was to help, [01:03:00] um, people like yourself have an easy, easy to use tool to help find remote or, or, or have people that you might have taught or coached in person, but continue that connection without it involving just emails, WhatsApp, all that. It's like it keeps all your coaching work in one place.

And so, and then to do that across sports that I'm passionate about, with mountain biking and, and snow sports and, and I think a lot of the. These sports are sort of, um, media driven in a way, in that some people like just having memories of, of their day out. And so to make sure that the videos through shared through the app are still high quality.

Um, and, uh, yeah. And so, yeah, it's been cool. And you know, I think we were stoked on kind of how people have been receiving it in the mountain bike world. And, you know, the, quite lot of the World Cup teams were using it for line analysis, which is, which is pretty [01:04:00] wild to have, you know, names like, um, Gwen and, and Niku, mul and, and, and the spec, some of the, the specialized team.

Like it's pretty cool. Like, I don't think 15-year-old Ross would be. Would, would, would've imagined that we'd be having conversations with people of this caliber. So 

that's pretty awesome. Hey, how that yeah. Opens up the ability for you to connect with people that you may not have been able to have a conversation with before.

Yeah. 

The same for me with this podcast. It opens up the ability for me to have conversations with some of my heroes that might not have necessarily sat down for an hour conversation. Yeah. Before. So thank you. 

That's awesome. Yeah. 

But yeah, the sportsense app, it's, it's been great. Like talking about the line analysis, that's just one of the features.

That's really cool, isn't it? How you can have a side by side comparison video and sync them up in real time to truly which line is faster or, 

yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even, yeah, and I think like one motivation for me is being [01:05:00] able to have, say you have a long-term person you work with, is having almost like you're having a library of their progress.

And sometimes it's good to just look back, Hey, this is what we looked like. Four, four months ago. Yeah. Check out what your riding looks like now. And it can, it can inspire con That's what I think can contribute to building confidence for someone. It's like, oh, I am, I am genuinely making progress. 

Yeah.

That self-reflection piece is a big one. I, and kind of highlight that for riders. 'cause I think so often we're wired to think about what's not happening or 

mm-hmm. 

What we can't do yet. But it's like, if we look at where we came from, that's a huge opportunity to reflect and build some self beliefs, some self-confidence.

Yeah, absolutely. And, um, yeah, and just being able to see, oh, okay. Like, you know, I thought I was doing this, but I, I, I can do more of that. 

Mm. 

That's 

that whole thing. Often how I think we're riding doesn't actually match what it looks like in that third person does it. 

Yeah, for sure. And even for me, you know, I'm, [01:06:00] I'm experienced, but some stuff I just like to be able to just double check on the video.

Yeah. Um, stuff happens in the blink of an eye and I definitely. Never tell people, just some sort of feedback that I'm guessing. It's like, it's gotta be accurate feedback. 

I've been using it a lot to self-coach myself, like getting buddies videos of me and then being like, okay, 

yeah. Yeah. And I like then the man, and especially for things like manuals and maneuvers, it's so good for that.

Um, 'cause yeah, the, you can break down the details way easier. 

Amazing. If, uh, if anyone listening is curious, uh, to learn some more about Sports Sense, where can they find out more about the app? 

Um, just on, uh, sports sense.coach, uh, is our website. And then, uh, our Instagram is, is the, is the same sports sense coach.

So yeah, it's, uh, and, uh, and for sure if anyone's. Not connected with you. They should [01:07:00] connect with you on the app. Just, 

yeah, totally. I mean, that's the best way is connect with a coach through sports sense. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Or if you, yeah, if you're working with a coach, it's a great opportunity if they're using the app and only do a lesson with them, but then continue that journey on your home trails as well, so, 

oh, for sure.

Yeah. That was huge part of what we wanted to do. And, and, and that's something that we haven't really sort of told the mountain biking world about so much, and I think this year we're really trying to, the, the past two years we've been trying to connect with coaches and, and get coaches using it and, and using it organically, but we really want to try and.

That's actually another motivation was, um, you know, I wonder how many people out there have considered coaching but maybe haven't got access to a high level coach in their local area. Or even maybe the, the price of a, of a in-person session might seem a bit bit high, but potentially if the idea of sending a video or two into someone like yourself [01:08:00] who's an expert coach and can give really specific, um, actionable feedback, um, that might feel more in, in the value, um, high value range for them.

And so I, I'm really curious to know whether more people could be curious about, um, learning in that way. 

I think you're onto something there. Yeah. It's a great way of, yeah. Getting started at maybe like a lower value product and just getting a taste of like the, the value of doing a mountain bike coaching session.

Yeah. 

Might help someone iron out some bad habits or answer some lingering questions they've had, or it might even kind of spur or fuel their fire and actually make them think, yeah, I do actually wanna travel to get a mountain biking lesson or do something. 

Yeah. Yeah. And even, I wonder, I wonder how many people out there are maybe just kind of a bit nervous of going for an in-person lesson.

Mm. 

But there's that almost like safety of just not being in person is from a sort of vulnerability standpoint. 

Yeah, definitely. 

I mean, I'm sure 

learn in the comfort of your home trails. There's something to be said about that [01:09:00] as well. 

I'm sure the number is definitely not zero. 

I think it's cool. Like ultimately it's making mountain bike coaching more accessible.

Mm-hmm. 

That more people can do more coaching more often, so 

yeah. Yeah. 

Awesome stuff. I'm looking forward to, yeah, continuing to use the app and, and seeing it grow. It's been amazing, uh, being able to be in contact with you guys and the sports team and give feedback and just every time I open the app, see that there's a new update and the new feature or some of the feedback I've given you is now in place.

Yeah.

Awesome, man. Winding things down here.

I'm curious, what's one thing you're excited to see happen in the mountain bike industry over the next decade? 

Um, I just, I, I think just being, being open to, um, just optimizing, um, and, and training people for, um.

Working with individuals, I think is the thing. I think, you know, and I think with things like web forums, [01:10:00] webinars, online learning, I think that's gonna be a part of it. Um, and to focus less on kind of the idea of certifying or certifications and more about training and ongoing training and, and elevating everyone's game.

Um, and, and all learning from one another is, is gonna be crucial. I think, you know, there's, there's quite a lot of us spread around the world, but I think the cool thing is that maybe in our own communities, we, we can serve our own communities really well and do a really good job. And I think there's a lot of people, um, out there who aren't, aren't in somewhere like the sea sky, which arguably has one of the most densely populated, high quality coaching, um, communities there is in the world.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, so I'm excited that. Through access with online learning, we can help, um, just have conversations like this with more people and even just people tuning into your [01:11:00] podcast, that's, that's hugely valuable for them and their own learning. So I think it's that it's just sort of leveraging a little bit of that sort of technology to be able to help people become better is, is probably what I think is gonna happen.

I love the vision and it's not necessarily like, Hey, but coaching's all going online. It's all information based now. It's just synergy, isn't it, of like actually making the in-person stuff better and then the in-person stuff can make the online stuff better as well. 

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think it's, yeah, the, in I, I think, I don't think the in-person stuff will, will ever, um, be beat in terms of what it, the pure value it can offer.

Um, but I think it can be supplemented with. With some other stuff, so. 

Hmm. Yeah, I've certainly experienced that firsthand. You know, I think the, the sports sense coaching early on, the remote coaching has made my in-person sessions and expeditions better because when I get there, I already know the rider I've already got Yeah.

The sense of how they [01:12:00] work. They've got to know me and I've already started working on their riding before they even get there. So it's like we can, 

yeah, 

we can 

you, you've already done like a POV run of the trail to know what to coming.

Awesome, Ross, well thanks so much for this chat. I feel like I've, I've learned lots just hanging out with you here for the hour. I'm sure listeners will have as well. Is there anything we haven't touched on yet that you were hoping to speak about today? 

Not really. I think, yeah, we've, we've covered quite a lot and yeah, my, my brain probably couldn't, uh, deal with what, I mean, maybe it could be for another one.

Um, you know, I've definitely, there's. My, my brain's always ticking in terms of how to try and make myself better and, and to just have good chats and you know, I think just conversations like this with a, another coach like yourself is how we do that. Like, I've got a great friend, my, my in snowboarding, John Shelley, who we're almost messaging daily about just things to do with teaching and, [01:13:00] and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm always stoked so I probably could talk more, but um, maybe, maybe for another time.

Yeah, I think talking uh, isn't a problem both of us have, but 

especially about coaching. Yeah, 

yeah, exactly. But I, I love it man, that, that love you have just for love for learning, love for Mountain biking and snowboarding. It's contagious. So yeah, keep up the good work and yeah, thanks for your time today.

Cheers mate. Appreciate it.